BBC HD h.264 frame order judder

[HiDefStream]

I often record BBC1 HD with a Hauppauge HVR 4400 and WinTV 7.0.30102. Up until recently, the transport streams played back perfectly in both software, and on hardware (a Sony BDP S380). For hardware viewing I usually edit/clean up the stream with SmartCutter (and sometimes TsRemux to strip out unwanted audio), and then create a blu ray with multiAVCHD (which I think in turn uses tsMuxer), and burn to a Verbatim BD-RE with ImgBurn so I can watch in the lounge rather than on the PC.

Until recently the streams have played back perfectly without fail on a Sony BDP S380, no problems at all. However, suddenly (June/July 2012) I am getting really bad judder. I have not changed any hardware. Using freeze frame on the BDP S380 it looks as though the frames are being played back out of order. In a pattern 8 frames long, the stream plays the 8th frame before the 7th, then resumes. So the frame order is 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 16 15 ... It does this for the whole file. In software on the PC the exact same streams are playing back no problem! Incredibly, a physical blu ray disc made this way plays fine on a PC with Cyberlink PowerDVD, but not in the Sony blu ray player! This has all suddenly started happening without any changes to hardware or software, having been okay for years up to now.

I know the BBC have been making changes to do with Wimbledon and the Olympics, and have boosted the resolution of BBC1 HD to 1080x1920, but I can't see why this would have any effect, but I suspect it is something to do with the BBC's encoders, since ITV HD and Channel 4 HD are still working fine just as before with no issues (and at 1080x1920). If it is something to do with the BBC changing their encoders, it is beyond my level of understanding to get any further.

Also I have tried using TsMuxer (and separately H264 level editor) to change the H.264 profile from 4.0 to 4.1, but that had no effect. Recoding the video with BD Rebuilder fixes the problem, but this takes a significant amount of time and there will be a loss of quality.

I was wondering whether anyone else is seeing similar behaviour, and whether the folks at Fame-Ring have any idea how to fix the stream so that the frames play back in the right order on the blu-ray player without having to re-code the video.

[wavelet]

I haven't burnt BBC HD content to Blu-ray for a while, but in the past, it would only work if I selected the "stream fix" option in Smart Cutter.

Have you tried playing the m2ts file in a software player? (Windows Media Player, DivX Player, Media Player Classic, VLC or whatever.) Do you get the same issue?

[HiDefStream]

I haven't burnt BBC HD content to Blu-ray for a while, but in the past, it would only work if I selected the "stream fix" option in Smart Cutter.

Have you tried playing the m2ts file in a software player? (Windows Media Player, DivX Player, Media Player Classic, VLC or whatever.) Do you get the same issue?

Thanks for that - I did try the "stream fix" but sadly it doesn't help. The m2ts plays fine in a software player, which makes the behaviour in the blu-ray player so confusing!

[wavelet]

What happens if you try to play back the recorded ts stream on your blu-ray player without touching it with Smart Cutter?

Is the judder only at the start and end of your edited ts?

When I have some spare time, I'll record a sample of BBC1-HD on my Dreambox and see if I can reproduce your issue.

[HiDefStream]

Many thanks for the offer - if you get the same as me then at least that will prove something. If not, then suspicion falls on the Sony - and yet it is still playing streams recorded prior to June absolutely fine, so that's odd... I have tried creating the blu ray without Smart Cutter - just TsRemux (for cutting) and just tsMuxer to create the blu ray direct from the source as well. Same result, so I suspect it's something to do with the Beeb changing their encoders when they switched to 1080x1920 in June - perhaps no longer blu ray compliant, yet still okay for DVB-S (I don't know if such a thing is even possible so this is just a wild guess!). I was hoping Smart Cutter would clean the stream enough to make the problem go away, but unfortunately not. For creating the blu ray I usually use multiAVCHD but have also tried Arcsoft Totalmedia Studio 3 (demo version) (same result).

I have also tried cleaning the stream with VideoReDo H.264 v4.2 (demo) and also TSDoctor (demo). I'd have bought one of these if they'd fixed it, but no effect. Same result every time - no trouble on the PC, frames not in the right order on the Sony! The frame order problem is the entire way through the file. Again, I was hoping the Smart Cutter stream fix would solve the problem, but unfortunately not.

[wavelet]

I've just analyzed some H.264 from tonight's BBC1-HD Olympics coverage and, yes, the encoding has changed and not in a Blu-ray-friendly way, I'm afraid.

A typical GOP now looks like this: BBBBBBBIBBBBBBBPBBBBBBBP, i.e. 7 B-frames in a row. The maximum permitted in the Blu-ray spec is 3.
Another recording I have from early April this year has the following GOP structure: BBBIBBBPBBBP which does meet the Blu-ray requirement.

If you really want to burn Blu-rays of your HD recordings, you will have to re-encode them or buy a blu-ray player which isn't so fussy. Look for one which can also play material streamed from the internet.

[HiDefStream]

Wavelet - not the outcome I had hoped for but I am extremely grateful to you for solving this mystery. Charitably one might conclude that the BBC is using its bandwidth more efficiently. Uncharitably that this has been done to prevent people making blu rays of their favourite shows...

Thanks again.